Altered Mental Status(1G AWD 5spd)

[pauleyman]

Damn this is a good idea. I’ll try that tomorrow. I may go get a smaller set of prybars because these screwdrivers I have are as sturdy as a limp noodle.

This has been my only method for 25+ years. Haven't had one stuck yet.

Honestly it’s just weird. All the times I did it before it was minimal to no effort. I have no clue what changed between then and now. Only guessing that it’s fluid related but now this trans had fluid in it from day one.

 

[dwb]

This isn't a pivot ball shim problem. It's either a step height or clutch disc issue. Most likely the step. Notice how the PP fingers are nearly flat or even concave? They should sit a little convex (pointing outward). It will never release in this state, no matter how much you shim it.

 

[bastarddsm]

This isn't a pivot ball shim problem. It's either a step height or clutch disc issue. Most likely the step. Notice how the PP fingers are nearly flat or even concave? They should sit a little convex (pointing outward). It will never release in this state, no matter how much you shim it.

i agree, as flat as they are, good chance fingers hit the disc before it gets fully released. There is also as good of chance that the disc is junk too since trans was put in on a jack.

It's an interesting issue. Everyone gets all bent out of shape if the step height is off 0.005" or something, and most can't even measure that precise to begin with. Next up how much does it even matter when most of these places ship the same PP with discs that vary 0.030" or more in thickness. Or even better when the pp is warped 0.060" after a few launches.
Step height is not a set it and forget it thing. It varies depending on the clutch, and every clutch should be checked, adjusted, and setup independently. It's really the only way - it's not hard, it just takes a little time, but so does pulling and installing the trans for the 80th time and keeping guessing at why it won't work right. I set them up so that with a new disc they are just past peak clamp load, and will wear into peak. Usually results in the fingers being just slightly up. Remember it's a system and everything effects everything. If you want to toss it in with minimal care and have it work, best be finding an NOS pressure plate/disc/flywheel.

Another point to add. Clutch guys should specify a finger position, not a step height. My tilton carbon comes with a check gauge. sets across the face of the pp. If the fingers don't touch one side, too low - install thinner pp (deeper step height basically). If they touch the other side too high - worn install thicker pp ( less step height.)

 

[dwb]

There is also as good of chance that the disc is junk too since trans was put in on a jack

I have to believe the disc hadn't ever seen the input shaft at the point when that pic was taken. (I see no scratches on the PP )

 

[CrackedDSM]

I’ll give it one more try and if it still doesn’t fully release I’ll just throw either a stock flywheel in it or find someone to check the step height on this one.

And no, when that pic was taken the clutch assembly never saw the trans.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Transmission has been dropped, and put back in with new shim on the ball. In person there is a slight concavity outwards of the fingers. They’re not super flat like the picture shows. But time will tell if this is fixed or not. If not then I’ll just buy a new flywheel from Tim Z that he’s checked and verified step height for me.


But I just want to take a moment and thank you kurt/ @bastarddsm for your input and help. It is appreciated, as well as everyone else who has offered advice and tips.


Also the transmission will drop out with the passenger axle still in the trans. Once it was out, it popped out easily with a flick of the wrist motion. Go figure.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Alright, trans was dropped, pivot ball was shimmed, and trans reinstalled. Axles reinstalled, shift cables hooked up, trans filled back with same fluid again, t-case is on and bolted, etc. The only things left are install UICP, install battery, and install intake/filter. The pivot ball is perfectly where it should be, so if this doesn't work I'll just buy a proper flywheel that's been checked already before purchasing, and do it all again. Lol.

But I'm getting pretty good at this "dropping and reinstalling" transmission business.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Shimming the ball did not fix it as some of you knew it wouldn’t. Flywheel is improperly stepped, again as a lot of you knew.


I’m fu*king bummed to say the least. But time to order another flywheel that’s guaranteed the correct step height. I was gonna buy one anyway when I bought the clutch but decided against it. FTL.

I’m done working on it for awhile though. Dropping the trans twice in like three or four days time is for the birds. Gonna wait a few months and do another staycation then I’ll swap flywheels.


I did drive it down the street though. That was an experience considering it won’t idle. Oh well. Once I get it actually shifting and clutch where it needs to be I can focus on the tuning aspect.

 

[CrackedDSM]

This isn't a pivot ball shim problem. It's either a step height or clutch disc issue. Most likely the step. Notice how the PP fingers are nearly flat or even concave? They should sit a little convex (pointing outward). It will never release in this state, no matter how much you shim it.
View attachment 727785

You called it brother. Even after shimming the ball perfectly it still isn’t enough to fully disengage the clutch. Flywheel is 100% to blame.

New one coming soon though. Gonna have it shipped to Tim Z and have him check it.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Breaks my heart but I still love it. It’s so close, man. Fix the clutch issues permanently, then just a few tweaks to the tune and she’s good to go.


While driving it I did find out the windows do in fact roll up and down. So that’s another item crossed off the to do list. The door sensors work because it shows the door open when open and closed when closed, so I’ve no idea why the auto seat belts aren’t working but that’s a problem for another day. At least I know from this experience that it will shift, the driveline is quiet as can be, the engine doesn’t knock, the power steering works great with no leaks or noise, and the suspension doesn’t creak or groan. Windows roll up and down, door locks work, brakes stop the car fine and pedal pressure is great not spongey. Clutch pedal pressure is nice too. She wants to run, just gotta coax her back to life.

So overall, am I disappointed? Yeah. Am I happy? Very much so. I learned a ton, and got a lot ironed out and a few things weren’t as bad as I expected them to be.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Sooooo. If someone was to theoretically use a red scotch-brite disk on his milwaukee drill on the flywheel to remove the surface rust on his theoretical flywheel...would that theoretically have removed too much material and caused the step height to now be screwed?


Theoretically speaking of course. Totally not that I did that and am now wondering why my step height is off on my flywheel.

 

[dwb]

The step needs to be cut deeper in relation to the PP mount surface.
So theoretically the supposed "scotch-brite disc on Milwaukee drill" could have slightly helped if only used on the friction surface.

 

[CrackedDSM]

The step needs to be cut deeper in relation to the PP mount surface.
So theoretically the supposed "scotch-brite disc on Milwaukee drill" could have slightly helped if only used on the friction surface.

Would it have hurt is what I'm asking. Lol. Like, as in "probably caused the current issue".

 

[dwb]

Not likely unless you were shooting sparks with the Milwaukee

 

[CrackedDSM]

Not likely unless you were shooting sparks with the Milwaukee

Thankfully it’s not that powerful. Was just really trying to assign blame to myself but I’ll just stick with the “should’ve checked step height somehow” Road.



I have to ask though, if a guaranteed properly stepped flywheel goes in and it still doesn’t fix it…what else could it be? Non-OEM master cylinder?

 

[curt-s]

A leaky slave or master

Incorrect Flywheel hub thickness (too thin) which allows the tob to rest too close to the block

Too fat of a clutch disc (or too shallow of step) causes pp surface to bias to the left, pp fingers to bias to the right/flatten, tob moves towards the block, fork end to the left side of the window.

If you took off material from the flywheel friction surface, you would have increased step. That moves the pp surface towards the block and the fingers go convex and open up away from the block. That moves the tob away from the block and the fork end towards the block/right of the window. Only if you could remove material uniformly enough across the entire surface.

So your efforts didn't contribute to the clutch fork alignment, but it did potentially create a lot of high/low spots that will reduce overall friction and holding capability. Exact amount? Hard to say, maybe negligible.

 

[1cleangsx]

So it’s NOT supposed to look like this?

 

[CrackedDSM]

A leaky slave or master

Incorrect Flywheel hub thickness (too thin) which allows the tob to rest too close to the block

Too fat of a clutch disc (or too shallow of step) causes pp surface to bias to the left, pp fingers to bias to the right/flatten, tob moves towards the block, fork end to the left side of the window.

If you took off material from the flywheel friction surface, you would have increased step. That moves the pp surface towards the block and the fingers go convex and open up away from the block. That moves the tob away from the block and the fork end towards the block/right of the window. Only if you could remove material uniformly enough across the entire surface.

So your efforts didn't contribute to the clutch fork alignment, but it did potentially create a lot of high/low spots that will reduce overall friction and holding capability. Exact amount? Hard to say, maybe negligible.

The slave is a brand new(purchased like a month ago by me and only installed like three days ago) OEM mitsubishi unit, but the Master..idk. The Master looks new, but I can't confirm its OEM Mitsu because the slave I took out to put this one in, the P.O. installed at the same time was a non-OEM unit.

The master itself looks brand new, but the rod is rusted as F*CK. There's no brake fluid/master fluid leak anywhere in the interior, but there was/is a water leak if I leave the car out in the rain(which I did once before I knew there was a g*d d*mn interior leak from the top of the windshield somewhere, Lol) so I'm sure that's where the rust came from.

TBH when I yank the transmission AGAIN, I may just install a brand new OEM Master as well. That way literally every single thing related to clutch, both mechanical AND hydraulic, are all brand new and within spec. The pivot ball/fork has been shimmed perfectly, the clutch pedal has zero slop, the slave works properly and to the depth it should and can be compressed back in with proper effort(minimal), so from here...new/guaranteed flywheel and new mitsu master and there should be NOTHING left that stops this POS from disengaging and engaging the clutch as it should.

If I do all this and it still doesn't work...on my word as an EMT I will auto swap this thing.

 

[pauleyman]

I assume you've checked the pedal assembly also?

 

[CrackedDSM]

I assume you've checked the pedal assembly also?

Yes. Before I pulled the trans I checked literally everything else I could. Lol. Hoping I could find a smoking gun that would stop me from pulling the trans again.

Previous owner rebuilt it but didn’t get it welded. So it’ll need welding in the future but right now it’s tight AF.

 

[bastarddsm]

It's not likely the step height. You could have the flywheel cut 10 times and doubtful it would change it enough to cause problems. You didn't grind shit off with a scotchbrite pad. A new flywheel won't fix your problem. If one got all anal about it and tried to keep all that in spec replaced a pp every time it got warped, cut the flywheel every new clutch ect and had a fast car an use it you'd literally go bankrupt. I have no bullshit $20k in clutch shit around here and I use that shit till there ain't no more to use.

Have some common sense. They all warp, thickness's change, shit moves, stuff bends ect. If it was as crazy particular about step and shimming as you all make it out to be these cars would have never made it off the dealers lots.

These cars don't have poorly shifting transmissions. Dipshit owners listen to tribal knowledge and try to treat the symptom with some bullshit herbal tea or something instead of getting down to the root cause.

Drill a hole in the bottom of the bellhousing so you can measure the ammount of release clearance you get. Then fix the problem.

 

[CrackedDSM]

It's not likely the step height. You could have the flywheel cut 10 times and doubtful it would change it enough to cause problems. You didn't grind shit off with a scotchbrite pad. A new flywheel won't fix your problem. If one got all anal about it and tried to keep all that in spec replaced a pp every time it got warped, cut the flywheel every new clutch ect and had a fast car an use it you'd literally go bankrupt. I have no bullshit $20k in clutch shit around here and I use that shit till there ain't no more to use.

Have some common sense. They all warp, thickness's change, shit moves, stuff bends ect. If it was as crazy particular about step and shimming as you all make it out to be these cars would have never made it off the dealers lots.

These cars don't have poorly shifting transmissions. Dipshit owners listen to tribal knowledge and try to treat the symptom with some bullshit herbal tea or something instead of getting down to the root cause.

Drill a hole in the bottom of the bellhousing so you can measure the ammount of release clearance you get. Then fix the problem.

The thing is, if I did that…how would I know how to fix the problem? I’m not trying to act like I know about manual transmissions at all. I’m just repeating what I hear other people tell me who’ve actually done the 5 speed thing.

Say I do it and measure it and it’s not getting enough release. How do I fix that? How do I fix if it has too much release?

I’m listening and taking seriously all advice I’m given. I’m not an authority on it and I am not speaking as one nor making these things out to be anything based solely on my experience at all. I’m just trying to fix this issue.

I also never said these m/t’s have shifting issues. The ones I’ve driven all shifted great.

Either way I’m here to learn and just so we’re all clear I’m not here trying to pretend to be anything. I just want this thing to release the clutch fully when I want it to, and for it to grab and not slip when I want it to. That’s it.


Just don’t want to be misunderstood here. Just trying to learn, peeps.

 

[curt-s]

View attachment 728006So it’s NOT supposed to look like this?

That's better than the other direction the fork end could be, yes. That's also why a taller step is better than a shallower step. If it was shallower, the fork end would be to the left as the pp fingers would be flatter.
Think of it this way: as the pp, clutch disc, and the friction surfaces all wear, the fork end will continually angle towards the block. If it was the other way around, the clutch would become less capable of being in a fully released state over time. But we're talking fractions of a millimeter anyway as the components are never staying exactly 100% in the same physical condition.

For reference, here was my full Fidanza setup: PP/2.1 4puck kevlar/Aluminum flywheel that went 30k before a spring took a walk.

 

[Christo]

Been trying to keep up so if this has been done or mentioned, carry on.

Have you tried adjusting the clutch rod on the inside? Is the clutch grabbing right off of the floor?

Clutch Adjustment

 

[CrackedDSM]

Really not happy with @Gsx-Dude / Dudes Custom Parts right now. Bought a complete 90 shifter assembly rebuild kit from him and honestly I can’t be more unimpressed if I tried. He won’t answer any email I send him(weeks ago, multiple emails), and after it finally arrived 5 weeks later, it arrived in a terribly built little hack job box that was slightly open, and after pulling the kit out, I discovered it’s missing a piece(the shifter cup on the bottom of the shifter itself)

Reach out to him on Facebook and still no answer.


I'm gonna give him a chance to make it right, but man...after $200 and 5+ weeks of waiting to get a box missing parts isn't a good look.